Just finished reading a book for young adults called Do Hard Things.
It’s about young people throwing off the low expectations found so prevalent in our culture. There are examples of young people making an amazing difference in people’s lives.
I think the most important part that I got from the book is the admonishment for our young adults to not become complacent. If society places the bar so low and a young person exceeds that bar, it’s easy to think that you’ve arrived. Even though it may have been easy, the struggle is to stretch yourself and do the hard things.
I am also reading a book called the Irresistible Revolution, it calls for our Christianity to be radical. Full disclosure here…it will challenge you politically. The author admits that non Christians consider him far right and Christians consider him a liberal. I need the challenge to live as an ordinary radical.
I’ll give a more detailed exposition as I read the book. Here is a review:
Starred Review. If there is such a thing as a disarming radical, 30-year-old Claiborne is it. A former Tennessee Methodist and born-again, high school prom king, Claiborne is now a founding member of one of a growing number of radical faith communities. His is called the Simple Way, located in a destitute neighborhood of Philadelphia. It is a house of young believers, some single, some married, who live among the poor and homeless. They call themselves “ordinary radicals” because they attempt to live like Christ and the earliest converts to Christianity, ignoring social status and unencumbered by material comforts. Claiborne’s chatty and compelling narrative is magnetic—his stories (from galvanizing a student movement that saved a group of homeless families from eviction to reaching Mother Teresa herself from a dorm phone at 2 a.m.) draw the reader in with humor and intimacy, only to turn the most common ways of practicing religion upside down. He somehow skewers the insulation of suburban living and the hypocrisy of wealthy churches without any self-righteous finger pointing. “The world,” he says, “cannot afford the American dream.” Claiborne’s conviction, personal experience and description of others like him are a clarion call to rethink the meaning of church, conversion and Christianity; no reader will go away unshaken. (Feb.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
Heather said,
July 29, 2010 at 1:55 pm
I need the challenge to live as an ordinary radical.
When you’ve caught a glimpse of Jesus, it flips your world upside down.
We all need to learn to live as “ordinary radicals”, I think.
Shane Claiborne?
Elmers Brother said,
July 29, 2010 at 3:05 pm
that’s what he calls himself.
Heather said,
July 29, 2010 at 7:26 pm
I think Craig has a video clip of him somewhere on his blog.
He has an interesting perspective, for sure.
Elmers Brother said,
July 29, 2010 at 8:49 pm
he does think outside the box…I’ll have to go find that over at Craigs
Heather said,
July 29, 2010 at 8:53 pm
His categories are a little less organized than some. Here’s the link
http://helmetslayer.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/what-if-he-really-meant-it/
Jen said,
July 29, 2010 at 10:35 pm
ElBro, have you read “Blue Like Jazz”?
It was very eye-opening for me.
I couldn’t agree more that we need to be stretched out of our comfort zones, out of that Christian sub-culture…even politically.
It really bothered me how my politics and religion were so entertwined…and I didn’t even realize it. It frightenend me.
I look forward to reading what you have to say about this book.
Elmers Brother said,
July 29, 2010 at 11:15 pm
no I haven’t Jen. I will try to find it though.
You’re right about how they are intertwined, I just wonder how it got that way. I for one have never heard much from the pastors I’ve listened to about politics. So I question it. Perhaps Roe v. Wade had something to do with it. I think to some extent that one decision alone polarized the country.
Jen said,
August 3, 2010 at 5:35 am
Roe v Wade was definitely polarizing, but there is a lot that scares me about the Christian sub-culture. There’s an appearance of exclusivity, even if it’s not real, it’s perceived. There seems to be little room for dissention. I don’t like that. It’s always bothered me when people speak for God, and modern day Christians are all too eager to do that. Also, the level of conformity that goes on within many churches and groups is troublesome. All of this adds up to large demographics that are very likely to share political views. …just another way to conform. If it’s sincere, that’s fine. But if it’s just to fall in line, yuck.
I feel very strongly about being pro-life, but it’s not because my preacher says it’s the way to be. It’s because of my personal experiences with losing a child and my belief in the sanctity of life.
I often wonder why I haven’t felt that same passion for the homeless (lack of experience?). Again, there’s the need to get out of that comfort zone.
Regardless, any compassion or empathy that comes out needs to come straight from the heart, and not out of obligation or coercion. Maybe that’s where I’ve often fallen off the trail. I get interested in the homeless ministry, etc, but then find that my politics win out over my compassion. VERY troublesome.
These are just contradictions that I see in myself and try to identify so I can either move forward or try a new strategy.
just rambling…
Elmers Brother said,
August 3, 2010 at 5:58 am
I agree with you in many ways Jen.
Leaving our comfort zone is part of doing the ‘hard things’. My son is challenging me to think outiside of that box that I’ve put my own brand of Christianity in. I like it, coloring outside the lines appeals to me, partly because some of the churches I’ve belonged to can’t handle thinking outside the box and I think miss many opportunities that God puts right in our face.
Jen said,
August 4, 2010 at 6:40 am
miss many opportunities that God puts right in our face
Exactly!
That’s the beauty of being willing to stretch. We realize that we aren’t (and never were) in control, and what happens is so much better than we could’ve planned. I love it.
Z said,
August 4, 2010 at 12:07 pm
I can’t see how we can separate religion from politics…in a way.
Everything we do is informed by our faith, consciously or (usually), Subconsciously, and some say we drag God into the voting booth,whether we should or not!
Christianity is about honoring LIFE and so we’re against abortion…we don’t need a pastor to tell us that, right, Jen? (xxx, by the way!) Christianity interprets Scripture to mean that two men shouldn’t sleep together, so we don’t honor homosexuality….etc etc. If we come at it all from LOVE (we don’t dislike the homosexual or the woman who had an abortion!) and not angry, self-righteousness, that’s a good..but, sadly, that’s kind of ‘radical’!
This book sounds very interesting and I’ll be eager to hear what you think, Elbro.
Jen, what kind of thinking do you mean is ‘out of the box’???
Jen said,
August 4, 2010 at 11:37 pm
Z, I agree that we should love people, and their behavior should not be the main focus. But sadly, the bahavior is what seems to be the main issue most of the time. That, to me, is very limited love.
How do I define “thinking outside of the box”?
Here’s how I define not thinking outside of the box.
A local church recently kicked out a youth member for coming out of the closet. My old babysitter (now youth leader at that church) told me this story and supported the church’s stand. I was horrified. I think the church could’ve welcomed the young man with open arms, showing him that he is loved, even though he is different. Love speaks volumes. Excluding him will break his heart, and probably that of his family. That’s inside of the box and very typical of this area. Fear = same old same old. They’re so stuck on the verses that focus on confronting the “sinner” with his sin that they forgot the parable about taking the log out of their own eye. When do we start confronting all of the gossips about their gossiping? Because…that’ll be a long line!
I think we can and should separate religion and politics. It’s not easy, but we can.
Elmers Brother said,
August 4, 2010 at 10:00 pm
Sometimes Z I’m reminded of how intertwined the jihadists are with politics and it makes me wonder at what point do we draw the line I agree with you about abortion, homosexuality etc. We should promote righteousness.
Heather said,
August 4, 2010 at 10:36 pm
I’m reminded of how intertwined the jihadists are with politics and it makes me wonder at what point do we draw the line…
IMO, the Roman church made a huge mistake when it accepted Constantine’s offer to intermingle Christianity and secular (pagan?) political matters.
Elmers Brother said,
August 4, 2010 at 11:44 pm
Heather has heard this a dozen times from me sorry H.
Doctrine without love is oppression and love without doctrine is sentimentality. There is a balance there. (I suppose you could substitute the word principal for doctrine).
That’s a tough situation Jen.
What would you do if a young couple were leading the youth group. The woman is married and her husband is deployed for six months and you find out as the pastor that they are having an affair?
Jen said,
August 5, 2010 at 7:04 am
I would resign as pastor and go take a long trip to the Bahamas. !!
I am SO BAD about these situations. Seriously, I don’t know.
I feel terribly uncomfortable when faced with any kind of leadership / judgement situation. It’s just not my calling. I’m more of a behind-the-scenes gal…I start groups and lead quietly. I “sin” and the “sinners” flock to me and we talk about how we can find better ways to live and love than to be destructive to ourselves, although some of the most valuable lessons are learned in those dark times. (rambling)
I just think that people who commune with God show it without necessarily speaking it, or shouting it. It shows in the way they treat people, the way they respect others, and themselves. It’s not about finger pointing. (way off point here…)
This is story that really did happen at our church, though….one of our youth leaders got a divorce from her husband and was asked by the youth minister to step down from her position. She had not done anything publicly “shameful”….she divorced her husband who cheated on her. Was she asked to leave her post b/c she was a divorced woman? Is it contagious? Seems so. Also, two teens in the youth group got pregnant and got married. They were asked to leave the group. :sigh: I guess that’s contagious, too. It just all seems ridiculous to me. It just seems like the LOVING thing to do would be to wrap these people up in arms and LOVE them.
Nobody is perfect. We never will be….not while we’re here. Loving one another through our hurts is the only way to survive this life, yet the church seems to kick the injured. I don’t get it.
I didn’t have this problem / see this going on where I grew up. Maybe it’s a small-town phenomena? I don’t know.
I do believe in God’s love, though.
What would you do about the couple leading the youth group?
I think I’d have a conversation with them and ask them what they think should happen. Chances are, they’d resign.
Elmers Brother said,
August 5, 2010 at 8:47 am
you’re right in that no one is perfect, but it’s not an excuse to sin. Romans 6
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
I’ll tell you what did happen in that situation is that the pastor confronted the couple and asked them to repent. They refused. The pastor then took an elder to the couple and again asked them to repent. At this point the woman tried to rationalize her behavior by insisting that the church had no idea what
God’s will for her life was. Well, anyone with a cursory knowledge of the Bible knows that divorce and adultery are never God’s will. When they again refused, they were brought before the body and asked again to repent. At this point they left on their own. Now one can say that’s like taking medicine from the sick. However it’s the one time in my Christian life that I realized that perhaps that couple either were not Christians or they found their sin much more important then their Christian walk and witness.
In the case that you mentioned I think more grace was appropriate.
Heather said,
August 5, 2010 at 1:44 am
Heather has heard this a dozen times from me sorry H.
Some things ought to be said more frequently
.
I know no one asked me but there is a huge difference between admitting to homosexual tendency and brazenly expecting people to accept and agree with one’s living of the “gay lifestyle”. My husband and I have been in e-mail contact with a homosexual Christian man for several months and it breaks my heart to hear how isolated he feels because of the judgmental attitude of other professing believers. He doesn’t usually tell people about his struggle because he fears rejection (he e-mailed me privately after we met on a third-party blog) and it seems that very few people who do know are willing to step up and embrace such a one in order to support and help keep him accountable.
If the young man simply admitted to having a struggle with temptation, I see no need to kick him out.
The church is called to have compassion on those who are hurting even as we are to not relax God’s standard of truth.
Elmers Brother said,
August 5, 2010 at 2:02 am
yes I think you’re right in this situation with the person who admits to temptation…I think Love ought to be the emphasis
I once heard a preacher say if you’re going to err…err on the side of grace.
Heather said,
August 5, 2010 at 1:59 am
“The Box” is the prison cell we place ourselves in when we presume to sit on God’s Throne.
Get off the Throne and you’re out of “The Box”. Jesus described it as “deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Me”.
What exactly that looks like is going to be different for every believer, as there are many parts to the Body and we are each called, convicted and instructed as individuals.
JMO
Z said,
August 5, 2010 at 11:24 am
Heather, I don’t see the ‘deny yourself’ quote fitting the BOX definition you give but I find your definition of THE BOX a pretty good one. Yes, I think it fits.
Jen, I don’t think we can take religion out of our politics; as I said, we all are informed by our faith in some way, consciously or (mostly) subconsciously.. I’m not saying intermingle politics and faith in America per se (tho I’d love that
..I’m saying it’s hard to divide ourselves…some might think they do, but I think it’s impossible for anyone.
As for the gay young man…..it’s a very fine line. You want to counsel and help him realize the action is not acceptable in the eyes of God but whose sin IS? And HE is loved by God no matter what. I’m studying a book with 7 other women right now called RESPECTABLE SINS, in which Jerry Bridges shows that anger, frustration, irritability, judgment, , etc etc..are all SINS…so, where do we start and where do we end? Whose sin is bigger? (answer: nobody’s) (I just read your comment again and see you mentioned GOSSIP, so you’re exactly on the same page I’m on here)
Still, you don’t embrace and coddle someone openly living a gay lifestyle in defiance of God or one’s church and the Word of God..
Move over….I’ll go to the Bahamas with you, Jen, on this one
Elbro…you know I’m not talking about bringing the church into politics..nothing to DO with jihadists and I’m always sorry when you mention that connection when this subject comes up. CS Lewis has a quote which maybe better explains my point: “I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”
Heather said,
August 5, 2010 at 12:01 pm
Z,
Perhaps I can offer an explanation concerning “deny yourself”.
My understanding of the Biblical definition of denying one’s self is basically saying “I’m not god and never can be”. It’s the opposite attitude that Adam displayed when he decided to ignore God’s instruction to not eat the forbidden fruit.
I equate “getting off the Throne/getting out of the box” with “denial of self as ultimate authority”.
Christ demonstrated the ultimate in humble obedience in taking up the Cross. While none of us will ever match His perfection, we are called to follow His example.
Does that make more sense?
Jen said,
August 6, 2010 at 6:48 am
Z, the more I think about it (not being able to separate politics and religion), I think you’re right. I still don’t like it, though.
But….maybe it’s not always a bad thing. Maybe I’ve been too conservative (in both areas) of my life for too long and that’s where I need to get out of my comfort zone. After all, what’s life all about if it’s not stretching beyond what we already know and believe? Why not try on new ideas…if they are sound? I mean….if a liberal has a good point, then it’s a good point, even if it’s liberal. If there’s a charity that is deserving, then it’s deserving, even if MY church doesn’t support it.
If there’s a method of worship that works for me (but isn’t practiced at my church), I’ll do it elsewhere. (just rambling…)
And I LOVE that CS Lewis quote. I think about it all the time when I’m in my garden!!
Elmers Brother said,
August 5, 2010 at 11:49 am
if I’ve misunderstood Z then help me. I don’t mean to suggest that you would support such a notion or anyone would. I know I used an extreme, the opposite of course would be leaving our faith out of politics all together. I’m not suggesting that either. I only question to what extent do we take it and I seriously do not know the answer to that.
Especially in light of the fact that none of us place much faith in politics for finding a solution.
Elmers Brother said,
August 5, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Jen,
I think our examples are good illustrations of that balance that I mentioned. On the one hand you have some who have a heart turned to God, know that they may have made a mistake or struggle and are seeking God’s face…they need the love.
On the other hand, there are those who revel in their rebellion and have not intention of repenting…perhaps they need more of the doctrine.
Jen said,
August 6, 2010 at 6:49 am
Doctrine with LOTS and LOTS of love.
Z said,
August 6, 2010 at 12:20 am
Elbro, My CS Lewis quote says it all for me. I’m NOT talking about officially bringing Christianity into government. I’m saying you simply can’t vote without having formed some of your opinions based on what informs you. Good luck in asking my subconscious to peel back the layers and let me vote without all these years of faith and experience.
Heather, we don’t have to be presuming to sit on God’s throne to be holding tightly to His Words in Scripture. The Words are just plain RIGHT, and sometimes ‘out of the box’ can be ‘out of the Word’….I see now that by “out of the box”, Jen meant more ‘out of the comfort zone’ for those at the church she goes to..that welcoming an outed gay boy was too much ‘out of the box’…….
We must not judge but we must love.
Elmers Brother said,
August 6, 2010 at 12:57 am
I understand Z that our Christianity informs our decisions and perhaps that’s enough, but to what actions? Is voting enough? not enough?
Z said,
August 6, 2010 at 1:28 am
“to what actions?” Well, I guess if I were willing to vote for something that had been informed, consciously or subconsciously, by my faith, then I’d fight for it, too……..
Z said,
August 6, 2010 at 1:30 am
I should clarify..I’d send money to those I believe in, I’d march, I”d do all I could..
If you’re looking for a jihadi, don’t look at ME
Elmers Brother said,
August 6, 2010 at 1:35 am
LOL! no Z, I know you’re no jihadi. I wasn’t trying to exasperate anyone, just asking questions that I have not totally answered yet.
Heather said,
August 6, 2010 at 1:31 am
Heather, we don’t have to be presuming to sit on God’s throne to be holding tightly to His Words in Scripture. The Words are just plain RIGHT, and sometimes ‘out of the box’ can be ‘out of the Word’….I see now that by “out of the box”, Jen meant more ‘out of the comfort zone’ for those at the church she goes to..that welcoming an outed gay boy was too much ‘out of the box’…….
We must not judge but we must love.
Z, I’m not trying to say Jen was wrong in her statement. I know her use of the term “out of the box” is pretty standard and have no argument on that point. We must always strive to find a proper balance between compassion for other sinners and unwavering adherence to God’s truth.
I do know it’s possible, though, for people to be clinging so tightly to their interpretation of God’s Word that they refuse to be teachable. They become legalistic and condemning of others (placing self on the Throne of judgment) instead of tender to the leading of the Spirit. In effect, Scripture becomes in their hands a club by which they batter and crush other people (even other professing believers). And they can be 100% correct in every word they say yet have no visible compassion for anyone who is not “perfect”.
I’ve seen it. I’ve been a recipient of such treatment. And in my own heart, I’ve done it to others in the past and been severely chastised for it.
If you’ve never seen such ugliness, I hope you never have to. It’s horrible and destructive and the fences of legalistic Christianity very much resemble a box-like prison that does not allow a person to love in the way Christ loves.
Heather said,
August 6, 2010 at 6:39 am
our Christianity informs our decisions and perhaps that’s enough, but to what actions? Is voting enough? not enough?
If you ever get this one answered, I’d love to hear your conclusion.
When I was young, I recall that we a neighbor who believed that “church is church” and “business is business” and said he didn’t intermingle the two.
This sometimes seems to be the case with Christians and politics as well and I can’t figure out how to strip my theology out of my political view so my statements don’t look like a Sunday sermon.
If the US was a dictatorship, and citizens had no choice concerning what the govt did, I think a course of action would be pretty simple. But as Americans, I wonder often whether we’ve been gifted a responsibility to uphold God’s standards of right and wrong in our society as “we the people” inform our representatives concerning our laws and administration of justice.
Jen said,
August 6, 2010 at 6:40 am
“However it’s the one time in my Christian life that I realized that perhaps that couple either were not Christians or they found their sin much more important then their Christian walk and witness.”
Well, I’m bull-headed enough that when I’m embarrassed (shamed), especially publicly, I’d probably do the same thing. It’s not pretty. I’ve taken my spiritual life out of the public realm because of things like this. I just get so uncomfortable when it comes to mere humans holding other mere humans “accountable” for their sins….because….who is better than whom?
I’m owning that this is my issue. I simply have trouble submitting to authority. Always have. Sometimes it serves me well, other times it doesn’t.
I’ve seen our deacons behave very poorly, and to then watch them hold other people accountable just makes me cringe. That really highlights my unforgiveness and lack of grace. I think that showing grace, and using that as an opportunity to relfect on God’s grace for us is a much better way of handling these situations.
Regarding Romans 6, I don’t think that grace is a reason to revel in sin (destructive behavior) at all. HOwever, I think that believers DO continue to sin each and every day that we live and breathe (maybe not a specific sin, but we definitely sin). We get hung up on certain ones, like Z mentioned. I don’t think the young gay man that I mentioned earlier was reveling in his homosexuality. I think that it was difficult for him to talk about, and when he did discuss it with members of church, he was kicked out for not repenting immediately. ick.
I’m probably quite liberal on this type of stuff. I just know that I’d rather win people over to God by demonstrating his grace and lovingkindness than legalism. I know it’s not popular with a lot of people….my family and community in particular. It’s alright. I honestly believe that God is big enough to handle me and that He’s the one I answer to, not a panel of deacons, or even an entire body of believers. It’s really between me and him. I’d like to think that if every believer on earth told me that what I did was so horrible that God no longer loved me….I’d not believe it. My love and desire to know God cannot rest on what man says to me. ever. And I guess that’s where my stubborness serves me well.
Oh…this sounds confrontational.
It’s not.
I’m just laughing at what a hippie I seem to have become!
Elmers Brother said,
August 6, 2010 at 7:00 am
it’s cool Jen and regarding the young person you mentioned I do agree. But the point of holding people accountable is not to judge…that IS God’s job…but to reconcile and restore.
Heather…honestly…I’m not sure I’ll ever figure it out.
Jen said,
August 6, 2010 at 8:36 am
“But the point of holding people accountable is not to judge…that IS God’s job…but to reconcile and restore.”
I love that, ElBro. Such a grace-ful way of seeing things. Maybe I’m the one who sees things so legalistically and projects that onto others. No…not maybe, probably.
I love the moment when I can see things differently.
Heather said,
August 6, 2010 at 7:00 am
Jen
I mean….if a liberal has a good point, then it’s a good point, even if it’s liberal. If there’s a charity that is deserving, then it’s deserving, even if MY church doesn’t support it.
I like your thinking
Elmers Brother said,
August 6, 2010 at 7:03 am
Liberal charity?
I wonder what duhkkky would do if he knew my family supported a Jesuit volunteer who works with inner city AIDS victims?
Heather said,
August 6, 2010 at 7:14 am
You could find out.
Elmers Brother said,
August 6, 2010 at 7:18 am
LOL!
Heather said,
August 6, 2010 at 7:35 am
I’d love to see his reaction.
Elmers Brother said,
August 6, 2010 at 7:43 am
I would too, actually.
Jen said,
August 6, 2010 at 8:32 am
He’d love it and feel closer to you for it…but he’d never say it.