I have run across an issue with my son’s youth leader at church. My son graduated from high school at 16 and has been attending college classes for the last one and half years. He is very mature spiritually, consistent in his devotions, attends leadership, has played guitar for youth worship and is very involved. He has even traveled to different parts of the country on his own.
The Court Report is unable to post to the web our July/Aug 2007 cover story, “The Myth of the Teen Brain” by Dr. Robert Epstein, due to the terms of our reprint contract with Scientific American Mind. We apologize for the inconvenience. The article is available for purchase at Scientific American Mind online.
The Court Report asked Dr. Robert Epstein to share more about his views on the teen brain, and about his new book, The Case Against Adolescence: Rediscovering the Adult in Every Teen (Quill Driver Books, 2007). In his book, Dr. Epstein argues that teens are being shortchanged by the academic institutions and legal systems of American society today, and he explains why and how teens should be given adult rights and responsibilities based on their individual abilities.
Home School Legal Defense Association does not endorse all of the views Dr. Epstein expresses—in his book and in the following interview. Some of the conclusions he has reached based on his research you may find shocking, and some might challenge your thinking. But his basic argument supports our belief that our children are better off not being immersed in the teen culture, that they are better off being socialized by adults, and that our children are able to do more at a younger age and be more responsible than our modern American culture permits.
Court Report: How did you become interested in the topic of the teen brain?
Dr. Robert Epstein: I initially became interested because one of my older sons, at age 14 or 15, was very mature. And I was curious why he was forced to go to high school, why he was not allowed to work, why he was not allowed to own property, to sign contracts, and so on. He had a good business sense, for example. He would have loved to have started a business, but he wasn’t allowed to do much of anything by society.
| … YOU’RE NOT PUSHING THEM TOWARD OBLIVION—YOU’RE PULLING THEM WITH YOU INTO RESPONSIBLE ADULTHOOD … |
That got me interested in teen capabilities in general. And the more I looked into it, the more I found that teens have enormous capabilities that we seem to have forgotten about as a culture. In many ways, they’re far superior to adults—in their memory abilities, in intelligence, and in their perceptual abilities, for example.
Then I couldn’t help but notice these headlines—one after another after another—about the so-called “teen brain.” I said, “Wait, this doesn’t seem right—that teens have a brain that necessarily causes them to be irresponsible and incompetent. That can’t be right.” Teen turmoil is often entirely absent in other cultures, so a universal “teen brain” can’t possibly exist. When I looked carefully at the research said to support the idea of a teen brain, I found nothing there. Claims of a teen brain constitute scientific fraud, in my view.
You argue that instead of the teen brain causing teen turmoil, the cause is actually society, and in part, the peer influence found in public schools. As a psychologist, what is your definition of socialization?
Socialization is just a process by which we learn to be part of a community. So the question is, what community do we want our young people to learn to be part of? Some parents have said to me, “Aren’t school and high school, in particular, very important for socialization?” And my emphatic answer is no, because we do not want young people socializing with each other. We want them to learn to join the community that they’ll be part of their whole lives. We want them to learn to become adults. Right now, they learn everything they know from each other—that’s absurd, especially since teens in our society are controlled almost entirely by the frivolous media and fashion industries.
If you look through most of human history or you look at many cultures today, you find that teens spend most of their time learning to become adults. Here, they spend most of their time trying to break away from adults.
What advantages do you think homeschooling could offer teens over the current school model?
Well, individualized learning is extremely important, and so is having some distance from teen culture. Homeschooling can certainly create some distance from teen culture. It can create more meaningful contact with adults. It can individualize instruction. It can be a platform for accelerating maturation. All those things are possible with homeschooling, and they’re all impossible in most school systems.
I’m interested in homeschooling as an alternative to conventional school, an alternative that can provide a good education and that can allow young people to progress at the pace they need to progress.
I’ve actually been discussing homeschooling with my two younger children lately, because their mother and I are talking about homeschooling now. My 8-year-old said, “Dad, will I have any trouble getting into college?” And I said, “Well, actually, given how smart you are, my guess is that if you want to go to college, you can go there years earlier if you are homeschooled.”
I’m shocked by how regular school can hold young people back. Recently our 6-year-old wanted, on her own, to learn cursive. And so she started learning it—her mom was helping her—and she was doing a beautiful job. The next thing we knew, we got a note from the school saying that we were forbidden to teach her cursive writing—that she had to wait until the 3rd grade! We ignored the note, of course.
At this point, I have many reasons for wanting to homeschool. And one reason has to do with my new book [The Case Against Adolescence], because in researching the book I looked at the history, I looked at the model of schooling in our country, I looked at some of the individuals who helped shape compulsory schooling laws. Know what? They didn’t always have the interests of young people in mind—they sometimes had other agendas, some of which were quite dark.
Some people are saying, “Isn’t homeschooling the answer to everything?” And my answer is no. I don’t think it’s the answer to all the issues I’m raising in my book, because schooling of any sort is not appropriate for all young people at all times. The modern compulsory school idea was a product of the Industrial Revolution, which modeled mass education on the new “assembly lines” that were being used in the factories. Homeschooling is still part of a larger system of compulsory education. It’s still governed by education laws in each state, and even the curriculum is still determined, to a large extent, by the larger system. But young people need the option to take a break from education and move out into the working world in meaningful ways. I don’t mean as cashiers, either—they should be able to compete with adults for any job, if they can show that they’re competent. Based on their individual abilities, they need to be able to acquire a variety of adult rights and responsibilities and to learn and work side by side with adults, just as young people often do in the Bible.
In The Case Against Adolescence, you have a list entitled “Reintegrating teens into the adult world.” The rights in your list will be surprising to many parents—could you explain why you created this list?
Yes, first of all, it’s a very long list. I have to say, for the record, I was very uncomfortable creating that list, because I am a parent of four children, and I was raised to believe that young people need to be protected, that they’re inherently incompetent and irresponsible. I want to protect my children, and I want to protect all young people. I really struggled with writing that chapter. The rights I list are shocking in some respects. But the truth is that all young people are not the same, just as all elderly people are not the same. We have to look away from age and look at ability, look at competence.
Again, I learned so much in researching and writing this book over a nine-year period, and my own opinions were deeply challenged.
I know that if we move in the direction of a competency-based system, we’ll start to see teen turmoil disappear, and we’ll have young people working with us, instead of being our enemies. And they will not be so afraid and confused about growing up, because they’ll be growing up where they’re supposed to be growing up—that is, among adults.
If a teen can demonstrate competence in a certain area, does that necessarily mean that he or she should be entrusted with a certain responsibility?
That is the flip side of rights and privileges: responsibility. You can’t get a right or privilege without getting the responsibility that goes with it. I am not talking about giving young people more freedom—they have too much freedom. This is about rights and responsibilities. It’s a distinction that is subtle but very important.
If you give young people incentives and opportunities to join the adult world in various ways, thousands will go for it. If you deny all young people the opportunity to join the adult world, many will become depressed, angry, or oppositional. And that’s why we currently have 5.5 million teens in counseling and 2 million attempted suicides by teens every year.
What evidence can you point to that demonstrates that teens, when treated like adults, will rise to the challenge?
In my book, I talk about teens in other cultures. I talk about, for example, the Lost Boys of Sudan. I look at teens who ended up becoming the head of their family because of the death or illness of parents. I look at teens in programs like the original Boys Town. In the 1930s, Boys Town was run completely by young men, and the chief of police was 15 years old. (Now an elderly man, he is interviewed in my book.) This was a place where young men who were in trouble with the law came and basically ran their own town. Many of them became responsible young citizens overnight, because they were entirely in control of their lives. Unfortunately, the modern Boys Town has abandoned the old responsibility model that Father Flanagan established in 1921. It’s now mainly a “treatment” program.
The point is, there’s extensive evidence, both from other cultures and even from our own culture, that when you give young people meaningful adult responsibility, they become adults almost immediately. Their “inner adult” emerges, I guess you could say.
Competency-based laws would give teens a lot of control. How would you balance that with a parent’s desire to train his or her children and raise them a certain way?
I have certain values, and of course I want my offspring to share those values. If anything, your offspring are going to be more likely to adopt and share your values if you foster their maturity. Teens tend to “rebel” and to reject the values of their parents when they are overly influenced by their peers and when authority figures treat them like children.
In your book, you argue that on average, teens are capable of sound judgment and decision making, but how do you address the issue of parents feeling like they need to protect their children from making wrong decisions?
I struggle with that as a parent of four offspring. That strong tendency we have to want to protect—there’s a reason for that, absolutely. But the best thing we can do for young people is to give them the tools they need to be independent and to make those decisions. There’s only so much you can learn by advice from others. Most of what we learn in our lives comes from experience. You give your sons and daughters the best advice you can, and then you give them the tools they need to become independent.
If you give them incentives and opportunities to join the adult world, that’s not the same as setting them free. You’re not pushing them off a cliff. What you’re doing is saying, “I’m going to welcome you into the adult world. If you show me you can do this, then you’re going to join us.” You’re not pushing them toward oblivion—you’re pulling them with you into the world of responsible adulthood. Given the choice between being infantilized in the frivolous world of teen culture and joining the adult world, I believe most teens will pick the latter.
Have you tried your ideas of treating young people more like adults on your own children?
I can see this working on a daily basis with my two youngest children. It’s amazing. (I hadn’t worked all this out with my two older boys, but even they are pretty responsible young men.) I used to get my kids up in the morning and serve them breakfast, pack their lunches, and so on. Now, they get me up in the morning; they take turns on alternate days. They make their own breakfast, and now my 6-year-old tells me she wants to start packing their lunches. The message I give to them every single day is, “You can do it. I’ll help you, I’ll show you how. Now show me what you can do.” My 8-year-old now helps me do audio editing for my radio show. He loves it, and he’s faster at it than I am!
The only thing that troubles me is, again, that I’m facing a society which is not going to work with me on this. That’s why, as I say, I’m looking very seriously now at homeschooling. But that will only help somewhat; it’s not the whole solution.
What’s the typical reaction you get from adults who work with teens, regarding your argument for treating teens more like adults?
Well, the behind-the-scenes reaction I’ve gotten has been 100% positive. I have not run across one professional who works with teens who has not agreed with me. I’ve been getting letters from middle school teachers, high school teachers, psychologists, all of whom are highly supportive, but not many seem to be talking publicly about these issues. One exception is Dr. Helen Smith, a prominent forensic psychologist in Tennessee who has worked with thousands of young criminals. She’s come out swinging in defense of my book, because she believes as I do that youth violence is just a creation of our culture. The book also carries almost unprecedented endorsements from prominent thinkers: Joyce Brothers, M. Scott Peck, Deepak Chopra, Alvin Toffler, and many others.
Unfortunately, the livelihoods of many mental health professionals depend on the old and mistaken ideas about teens. Look at the business that would dry up in the mental health professions if they acknowledged the truth of what I’m saying—and what I’m saying is true.
Do you think that the idea of teens being treated more like adults will become a reality?
When you have opposing forces, things tend to move very slowly. You have teens on one side, pushing, but they’re currently powerless, and now you’ve got some adults joining with them and they’re pushing with them, but they’re a minority. On the other side, you’ve got my “enemies list.” You’ve got the massive industries that contribute to the maintenance of teen culture, you’ve got fearful parents who want to protect their offspring (and again, I can relate to that), you’ve got the whole pharmaceutical industry desperately wanting to expand that market, and they’re doing a good job of it. I think that, generally speaking, changes are going to come very slowly. If anything, as a culture we’re moving in the wrong direction right now, continuing to restrict young people and to isolate them from adults.
There’s one area where you will see some substantial changes, probably within 10 to 20 years, and that area is education. Why? Because of technology. You’ve got this technology that’s just surrounding young people and parents, saying, “Hey, you know what? We can do better. We can, for the first time in history, provide superb education to every person individually.”
The fraudulent idea of the “teen brain”—now that’s an area where my perspective will probably have no impact, in part because the drug companies support the idea of the teen brain. More money is now being spent on psychoactive drugs for teens than on all other prescription medications combined, including antibiotics and acne medications. The drug companies want us to believe that teens have defective brains that cause them to act irresponsibly. It simply isn’t true.
But education—that will change. And the homeschooling movement is well positioned—better positioned than any other societal force—to make that change happen.
Dr. Epstein shares from another article:
First of all, the Old Testament has very few age restrictions of any sort and the Old Testament gives incredible responsibilities to young people based on their individual capacity. So young people serve as kings, they serve as prophets, they serve as heroes, they serve in all kinds of roles based on their individual capabilities. That’s the key here, so there are very few age restrictions in the Old Testament. Now the New Testament, it turns out, has absolutely no age restrictions whatsoever. So again, we look at the Bible as a sign of what young people can do. It’s very clear that young people have these extraordinary capabilities, and I think that we need to recognize that again and look at our young people now and begin to give them new opportunity.
| Dr. Epstein Robert Epstein is a contributing editor for Scientific American Mind and the former editor in chief of Psychology Today. He received his Ph.D. in psychology from Harvard University and is a longtime researcher and professor. His latest book is called The Case Against Adolescence: Rediscovering the Adult in Every Teen (Quill Driver Books, 2007). More information is at www.thecaseagainstadolescence.com. |
Heather said,
July 9, 2010 at 3:26 am
I appreciated reading both your thoughts and the article. My old blog had several home-school oriented posts and much of our own view is echoed in this piece.
We know one family that never uses the term “teen” due to the negative connotation. The father basically has explained that if parents give their kids the idea that they expect them to be rebellious, self-centered under-achievers, that’s very likely what the children will focus on becoming.
The public school system has an assembly line method divided by age
I’ve maintained for years that this artificial means of segregation has a lot more to do with the engineering of a “needy” society than true education and preparation for adulthood. The “need for socialization” argument is completely bogus when compared to the reality that no one who enters “the real world” only interacts with people of his own age and experience level.
And cutting off developing children from the multi-generational interaction of family life tends to create a “pooling of mutual ignorance” effect, resulting in emotionally immature, self-centered people who have little respect for either their elders or those who are younger.
More money is now being spent on psychoactive drugs for teens than on all other prescription medications combined, including antibiotics and acne medications. The drug companies want us to believe that teens have defective brains that cause them to act irresponsibly. It simply isn’t true.
It is interesting that the word “pharmaceutical” is related to Greek that denotes both the use of medicine and the practice of witchcraft–including both beneficial and poisonous substances.
Elmers Brother said,
July 9, 2010 at 3:58 am
very interesting Heather about the word pharmaceutical.
and the dumbing down in our public school system…yes so prevalent.
I wonder what do you think about the traps I mentioned concerning the church…
Heather said,
July 9, 2010 at 5:05 am
very interesting Heather about the word pharmaceutical.
It’s a little unnerving to me. Standard medical treatment generally cuts, burns and poisons in an effort to cure. The potential side effects of many medications can be scarier than living with the malady they’re meant to relieve. And if the patient survives the treatment, he *might* get several more disease-free years, but there’s no guarantee. Even antibiotics (which can be life-savers) tend to wipe out intestinal flora and leave a person susceptible to chronic yeast overgrowth, digestive problems, and a generally lowered immune system. But that’s all beside your point.
Heather said,
July 9, 2010 at 5:09 am
They also divide the church corporately, for e.g. the elderly are segregated from our youth and yet have so much to offer. Rarely in the church body are the two groups brought together
The idea of “children’s church” makes my husband and me uncomfortable. We like to know what our children are being taught so we can discuss and answer their questions. It is disturbing that many congregations frown on kids in the main service, but I also understand a little, as so many parents won’t (or don’t know how to?) make their children mind. At any rate, the separation can distort the spiritual family picture just as segregated secular learning does the nuclear family unit .
Our current fellowship doesn’t offer any options. We all worship and learn as a family.
We rely on the church for our Christian education, rather than supplementing our daily walk, church becomes the substitute. So the church believe it knows best for my son, because it’s used to performing the substitutionary role of his daily walk rather than being a positive addition to his already deep relationship with the Lord.
This is a good observation. We’ve allowed society to shape not only the way our children are academically educated but also the way our church-bodies function. Parents have been told by professional educators that we really are not qualified to properly educate their children (according to their arbitrarily determined standard) and, some church leaderships have also adopted this attitude concerning spiritual training. Parents whose hearts are on careers or house payments or social engagements or whatever tend to not resist too strongly.
In many ways, the public education pattern of daily removing young children for several hours from their parents’ influence tends to break down communication and frustrate the relationship. So, even those parents who desperately want to connect with their children may feel at a loss and have placed their hope in a regular dose of Sunday school to help make up for it.
My husband says his dad didn’t believe in “quality time”, but rather in “quantity time” that naturally allows for ample teachable moments.
Additionally churches have learned to settle, much like our own society for mediocrity. They’ve become inflexible and unable to deal with those who are exceptional.
The reverse of this is also true. The inflexibility and mediocrity also leads to judgmentalism of those who are not as spiritually mature instead of moving believers to brotherly concern that prompts one to come alongside and offer help.
Elmers Brother said,
July 9, 2010 at 5:13 am
thanks Heather
Heather said,
July 9, 2010 at 5:18 am
Hopefully helpful. I tend to get easily sidetracked.
Heather said,
July 9, 2010 at 7:43 am
OOh.
I just realized that I ought to have qualified my response as *what I think*. In no way am I speaking from an area of expertise. I was offering observations I’ve made and opinions that I’ve formed over time.
Generally speaking, I think you’ve done a good job of making a case concerning the potential traps into which churches can fall.
Elmers Brother said,
July 9, 2010 at 7:46 am
there are very few ‘experts’ Heather and I’m of the opinion that there is a certain tyrrany with all the so called ‘experts’
Jungle Mom said,
July 10, 2010 at 8:02 am
Many years ago I graduated at 16 and had to spend a year on probation at a small Bible college. I ended up being RA the second semester.
Z said,
July 10, 2010 at 8:04 am
talking about words, did you know GOSSIPS used to be Godparents who’d tout their Godchildren in positive ways to the community, etc? I thought that was fascinating.
Well, Elbro, I do agree on your points about churches and age groups, that’s for sure. At Comm. Bible Study (nationwide about 1000 classes, more internationally), we have old and young…from preschool to 98 (and there are at least 20 out of 250 women over 90!)…Our ladies groups are ages from probably 18 to 98. They used to segregate by age…now they shake it up and it’s SO SO wonderful…my mom’s in a class close to her home and she adores having the young in her classes now. I love leading elderly and young women and seeing how the young girls lift up the elderly with their energy and enthusiasm and how the elderly lift up the youth with their wisdom and experience..all very positive.
I think on the teens thing and the college class, perhaps they’d like to have your son there but feel 16 in other children is too young? Most 16 yr olds are NOT college ready let alone attending coll. classes..maybe he feels that if he gives on this one, every 16 yr old will want to join “because HE is” and then he has problems with his college aged members? Just a thought..??
am leaving now so I can’t write more. ….let me know what you think and we’ll carry on from there.
Oh, one more thing…a thing I’m really allergic to is children given crayons and paper for church service. I believe that sitting for an hour quietly and respectfully is part of the growing up experience and part of a church experience.
i’m late…see you later!: xxx to you and Heather. (i am enjoying reading the comments)
Elmers Brother said,
July 10, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Jungle Mom…. I knew you were exceptional.
Z,
as far as letting everyone who was 16 in…my brother in law is a youth pastor and in his college group he has a 16 year old…but he attends college and was able to justify it
I think this guys problem is that he has accepted the social conventions that our culture has formed, he’s unable to work outside of that paradigm
so what I think will happen is that he will undoubtedly miss golden opportunities that God presents like this one because he can’t think outside the box
It’s like one of my pastor friends says….you have to meet all the opportunities God presents and this was one of them
Elmers Brother said,
July 10, 2010 at 7:12 pm
and that is very interesting about the word Godparents…Mrs. EB and I are godparents to Elmers son and her and her husband to ours
Z said,
July 10, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Elbro, you’re right….COLLEGE group ought to include those IN COLLEGE classes. I was thinking more AGE and that some parents could say “Hey, Elbro’s kid is 16 and HE’s in the college group, why can’t ours?” Simple response would be “Because he’s not IN college.”
if they’re ready for college, it kind of means they’re ready for a college group. you’re right.
I’m not quite as against social convention as some people are, I guess…but you have a good point about the term COLLEGE more than AGE… He should let him in.
Ya, isn’t that cool about GOSSIP, sad that the word’s changed, I guess! I am sad to say I’m Godmother to a boy I haven’t seen in 25 years but delighted to say I’m Godmother to my niece who just turned 26 and who’s finishing her Masters and doing a year’s Doctoral internship and Dissertation in N.Carolina this year..in psych! I gave her a steel bracelet of hearts for her birthday gift on July 4th…hearts because hers is so big, steel because of her courage and resolve. AND SHE IS GORGEOUS!
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 2:50 am
what a cool gift….Love the symbolism I have a lot more to say on this subject. I think this is much more about the ministry of the church the longer I’ve thought about it.
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 8:26 am
I just wanted to explain a little about how we ended up homeschooling and our philosophy behind it.
Our oldest child became kindergarten age while we were stationed in Guam and at the time the public and the DOD schools there were in dire straits. Most of the teachers did not even speak English. Mrs. EB and I have some dear friends who I attended high school with and they sent us some tapes about homeschooling that we listened to. We weren’t against public schools on principal, I having attended them all my life and Mrs. EB had attended parochial schools. Her father was a pastor and they enjoyed a nearby Christian school that my wife attended. So we had no bias against public schools per se but knew that the schools in Guam were not good at all.
My wife and I after having listened to the tapes decided to give homeschooling a try. A friend from church was a kindergarten teacher and agreed to test our daughter to see what she knew and we began. That first year was difficult, but we continued until we left Guam about a year and half later.
When we transferred to AZ as a recruiter we decided to try a private Christian school. She did well and about 3 years and two children later we moved to San Diego where they continued attending private schools. The school they went to gave us a break on tuition because I served on the school board as a parent representative, but it only went to sixth grade. Once our oldest finished 6th grade we asked her what she would like to do? Public, continue private or homeschool? She chose homeschool. The other two who were in kindergarten and 2nd grade I think, asked if they could also be homeschooled. From then on all three were homeschooled until finishing high school.
At the end of each year we asked them if they wanted to continue homeschooling, attend public or private school. A practice that we continued until they finished.
My wife found the graduation requirements from both California and Arizona and patterned the necessary curriculum…using Christian education materials. She discovered how many hours equated a credit etc and applied that to each subject. We also tested them periodically with the standard tests given in public schools to mark their progress and to determine where they were academically. All of them tested well above their public educated peers. For e.g. in my son in first grade tested at a 10th grade reading level.
Our oldest daughter graduated while we were still in CA and attended a community college there until we moved to AZ. Our middle child decided at 14 to see if she could also take college classes. So we took her and our son at 11 to take the placement test at the local community college. Both of them after taking the test would be able to start in freshman level math and English. My wife took my son because she saw it as a way to mark his development and not to see if he could start college. She simply saw it as a measuring stick.
Our middle child then started attending community college and graduated at 16 prior to moving on to a vocational school education, graduating and now working in her chosen field.
Our son had always exhibited good math ability and there came a point when he was about 13 when we either had to hire a tutor, because his mother and I could no longer help him or have him take a college class. He chose the college class route and continued to take college courses as he moved through high school.
We weren’t pushing our children to attend college at an early age it just happened, we merely took advantage of open doors. In reality our children were deeply involved in their own education. We asked what they wanted to do, incorporating some unschooling here and there and guiding them as they expressed interest in various subjects.
The philosophy behind our home educating initially was of course the terrible condition of the schools in Guam, but as we became more involved we realized that if they attended school we had very little family time. So home education provided a great way for us to spend time together. We also were involved in homeschool associations, parent groups, had outings and field trips, shared classroom and lab time with other families; it was fun and brought us closer together. The spiritual benefits were of course the biggest benefits. We tried to practice open intellectual inquiry, so that they developed critical thinking skills. We learned objections to scripture and apologetics.
I only explain because so many outside of homeschooling do not understand, this isn’t a crowing session or anything close to that. It was and is with fear and trembling before God that we did this. I’m sure there are some who do not take it seriously, but of those that we associated with, homeschooling was something that was an organic part of our life. It wasn’t just 6-8 hours of class time, like in a public school…it’s a lifestyle in which learning is an integral part of each day. Conversations at the dinner table often involved a dictionary.
Heather said,
July 11, 2010 at 9:25 am
That was wonderful!
homeschooling was something that was an organic part of our life. It wasn’t just 6-8 hours of class time, like in a public school…it’s a lifestyle in which learning is an integral part of each day.
Learning is a lifestyle and it sounds as though your children are exceptionally bright.
It is interesting to hear how different families approach home education. We know some who tend more toward the “classical” method and are strongly focused on college education. And we know others who are very flexible with the way they do things. One family is especially interesting to me as the father actually was once a teacher, but he and his wife decided to homeschool and as I’ve discussed their perspective, she’s explained that there were a few things they felt were extremely important, but they were not intensely focused on books and tests. Every one of their 6 children is respectful and highly communicative, some are musically inclined, the eldest 5 all have found employment, several have been to Europe… The relationship between the parents and children is phenomenal.
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 9:37 am
It is interesting. You know your children better than anyone and can tailor their education to fit their needs, their personality and their vocational bent.
We were flexible in our home educating, which is one reason why we liked unschooling. An example is that when we moved from the city of San Diego to semi-rural Arizona we can now observe the heavens withouth so much light pollution. When we moved here the kids marveled at how many stars they could see. So, we bought a telescope and a computer program and learned about the stars.
I”m interested to learn about your reasons etc. Heather.
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 9:42 am
Z, I also wanted to say how wonderful it is that your Bible study group has kept away from those societal norms, to everyone’s benefit spiritually. I hope you keep it up, it’s so important.
Z said,
July 11, 2010 at 10:42 am
I have to admit I worry about some homeschool families and being ‘too loose’…I do think that going to school from X time in the AM to X time in the afternoon gets us ready for ‘real life’ in a job, etc. (to say nothing of college real life) and I most admire those who stick to curriculums they can get from professionals even while tweaking to adjust the curriculum to the special and wonderful gifts their children might have (art, math, music, lit., etc.)…Elbro,I admire that you knew it was time to hire a tutor for your son and DID so…
It’s probably pointless for me to discuss this much further, not having home schooled!, but also because every family is different and I think specially-tuned curriculums (like unschooling) are great EXCEPT we need our kids to know a certain breadth of knowledge for college IF they choose to go, and a certain breadth of knowledge for LIFE because they will have to live it
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 11:37 am
you’re right in that following a schedule does prepare one in a sense for life…we bought professional curriculums, made some as well and when my daughter took chemistry, another homeschool family whose parents were nuclear engineers taught the chemistry and provided the lab materials…we just paid a small fee…IT WAS GREAT
as far as a tutor goes….yes we have to recognize our limitations as well..Mrs. EB is such a fantastic teacher and she’s the one who did the bulk of it. It’s not pointless for you to discuss because it helps me to know what others think and I appreciate and value your views so very much. Unschooling was fun too…I enjoyed that part the most…only because I’m a non-conformist…can you tell?
prepared for college and life…yes…like teaching my son home economics…budgeting…shopping….oh yeah…life is much more difficult than college
Z said,
July 11, 2010 at 10:44 am
OH, and thanks, Elbro…CBS is an amazing group and it is, by FAR, probably the greatest thing I get to do, leading a group is an honor and a thrill and a privilege. And , ya, I’d say the mixing of ages in our groups is a highlight of the program, the ladies get SO MUCH from it, old and young! xx
Z said,
July 11, 2010 at 10:44 am
by the way, I’m loving your new blog format, easy to see who wrote what, clearly presented, etc…good job! (ALMOST as good as you did for ME! Smile)
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 11:38 am
I’m not really all that settted on a theme. I liked that I could import my old blog here…something I tried and failed to do at blogger. I can’t figure out how to customize my theme and do not have the time to keep working at it. So like it or not this is it for now.
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 11:45 am
oh and I understand your worry Z but I want to assure you that I believe that many more parents take homeschooling very seriously…did you know it’s growing by about 7% each year?
so I like to think while homeschooling had gone out of style for 100 or so years, Mrs. EB and I, 20 years ago were at the ‘tip of the spear’ when it came to its revival.
BTW if you get a chance…HSLDA has a wonderful list of homeschool Hall of Famers…including many presidents.
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 12:42 pm
I also forgot to mention that at this same church when my middle daughter graduated also at 16, she was not allowed to stay in the high school group. My wife and I offered to host a small group for the college kids at our house but no group was started. So my middle child decided to go to another church.
Heather said,
July 11, 2010 at 1:19 pm
So my middle child decided to go to another church.
That just seems wrong that your children don’t feel welcome in your home church.
Heather said,
July 11, 2010 at 1:16 pm
I”m interested to learn about your reasons etc. Heather.
Our primary reason for homeschooling is that we believe God has entrusted children to the care of parents. While contemplating an academic direction, I’ve often had come to mind “For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? ” and have had to ask whether our American definition of “a good education” and “success in life” might not be seriously confused.
When our son was still young, we were made aware of the lack of closeness of many families that send their kids away for education and we also realized that it is difficult to maintain depth of spiritual instruction unless we actually spend time with them.
My husband and I both were partly home schooled. My family used a fairly standard pre-fab curriculum and his family was involved in more of a unit study situation. So, we had a bit of an introduction to what a homeschooling family might look like.
I have to admit I worry about some homeschool families and being ‘too loose’
Z, you might want to close your eyes now
I know college is at the top of many people’s to-do lists, but I’ve noticed that a lot of people go to school for 2-4 or more years and end up working a physical job of some sort. My husband has noted this, too.
Not saying college is always wrong, EB. It seems as though it’s exactly what your children needed to be doing.
I suspect you already know it doesn’t hurt for a young person to learn to use his back in addition to his brain, though.
My dad’s a strong influence in our perspective on education. He’s one of the most intelligent people I know, yet was not what one might consider to be an academically inclined individual. For as long as I can remember, he’s either worked for himself or as a manager, fixing problems for other people. He’s been a building contractor, radio station personality/manager, owned a photography business, taught himself to play several different instruments, gone into semi-retirement twice…that’s the short list, and I’m not trying to seem boastful, but he’s done these things well and without a college degree of any sort. Mostly self-taught, but has also apprenticed at times in order to gain skills.
He has always said that if a person can comprehend what he reads and wants to know something badly enough, he WILL learn. He’s in his mid-60′s and still has an insatiable desire to learn.
Our core curriculum is pretty basic but we go through a lot of books on a huge range of subjects and are willing to pursue things that particularly interest our children.
I got good grades, but honestly don’t remember most of the stuff I supposedly “learned” in school, and I’m not as interested in stuffing in a lot of information as I am in helping our children to learn to think critically and understand how to find needed information. Generally speaking, formalized schooling offers the opportunity to learn about time management, personal accountability, cheerfully doing one’s work and finishing that which one begins…but those are also character qualities we are working on anyway.
Life itself is a classroom. From the moment a baby is born, he begins to learn about the world around him and the process doesn’t end until he passes on. I’m not sure why so many Americans have decided to carve out a 12 year chunk of the experience, hand their children to practical strangers for that period of time, and call it “school”.
I suppose we qualify as “non-conformist”, as well.
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 7:07 pm
We encouraged our chidren to get vocational training, 65% of all jobs require some sort of voc-ed. My oldest daughter is trained as a respite worker and my middle child went through a year of vocational school. What I suggested to them is that if they learned a trade they could always feed themselves and if they wanted to pursue college then they could at least afford some of it while they make their way through. My middle daughter has earned up to $90 an hour.
Only 20% of jobs require a college degree…it’s just a fancy voc-ed school.
So I hear you. You really have your head on straight about homeschooling and I admire it very much.
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 7:08 pm
She is a licensed massage therapist, so is my wife. They went through a year of school and have a small business together.
Elmers Brother said,
July 11, 2010 at 7:14 pm
He has always said that if a person can comprehend what he reads and wants to know something badly enough, he WILL learn. He’s in his mid-60′s and still has an insatiable desire to learn.
That’s really cool and there is a lot of wisdom there.
Our core curriculum is pretty basic but we go through a lot of books on a huge range of subjects and are willing to pursue things that particularly interest our children.
pursuing things they are interested in we found helps them to narrow the field when it comes to vocation. It’s how our middle daughter became a therapist. We had a book on therapeutic massage, after reading it we talked to a LMT at church. She agreed to come over about every 2 weeks and teach my daughter…after about half a year or so she decided it’s what she wanted to do.
Heather said,
July 11, 2010 at 8:50 pm
I do believe that family business is a wonderful way to go.
Before the American system began the “assembly-line” approach to adulthood, and placing emphasis on “personal fulfillment” by way of a career,many children trained in a family-oriented business and inherited it when the father was no longer able to work.
Noah Webster on Education « The Narrow Gate said,
July 11, 2010 at 9:46 pm
[...] The Narrow Gate « The Necessity of Brokenness Noah Webster on Education July 11, 2010 Elmer’s Brother has posted a thought provoking piece in which he sets out to Make the Case for Homeschooling [...]
Heather said,
July 12, 2010 at 5:25 am
EB Only 20% of jobs require a college degree…it’s just a fancy voc-ed school.
I wasn’t aware of the numbers…Thanks.
So I hear you. You really have your head on straight about homeschooling and I admire it very much.
I can readily identify with the “fear and trembling” aspect of your own explanation. It is easy to start comparing what we do to other families or the public system and get nervous that we are doing things wrong. I have struggled with scheduling more than the actual instruction and every few years, we are gifted a new addition which changes the dynamic. But that’s “real life”, and requires that we learn to adapt, I suppose.
pursuing things they are interested in we found helps them to narrow the field when it comes to vocation.
Thanks for the input on that. It does make sense and we know quite a few skilled people who might be able to offer some hands-on experience as the kids begin to explore options.
That’s really cool and there is a lot of wisdom there.
My father is the ultimate non-conformist.
People have asked him for training in various areas and he’s told them he cannot “teach” them anything but can help them to learn. While it might sound a little off, the statement is keyed off of his attitude that anyone who wants to learn something can do it, even without a professional “teacher”. If a person isn’t really interested, “teaching” simply amounts to trying to force-feed information into a brain that is running counter to the goal. He doesn’t like to waste his time.
Elmers Brother said,
July 12, 2010 at 10:00 am
Z,
How structured you need to be will depend on the temperament of your children and the best part about homeschooling is the latitude to be flexible, to add or subtract as their interests change etc.
Heathr,
I would love to meet your father, he sounds like a grand fellow.
Elmers Brother said,
July 12, 2010 at 10:27 am
those are dept of labor statistics Heather
BTW only 3 out of every 10 high school kids go to college and if I remember correctly about half of those drop out…most kids go right to work
it’s one of the reasons I emphasized vocational training as a means to support yourself or as a way to pay for college
I understan how you feel about comparing but really you know what works best for your children, we know what’s best for our kids etc. Honestly I resent the negative feedback I’ve gotten from public school officials who have compared us to bullies or went on a rant about taking food out of THEIR mouths. When my daughter was looking into MT training the local school district has a vocational high school that teaches it. As we explored ways for her to earn this education we went there to check it out. As we spoke to the counselor and she realized we homeschooled, you could see a demonstrative change in her demeanor…
she suggested that our daughter would not be able to handle the curriculum (in particular…anatomy) and that perhaps we should consider another alternative. Which we of course did. She ended up with a 3.79 GPA through MT school and there was at least one student who had completed the vocational high school version and could not find work because it’s not well respected. So God, even in the midst of that woman’s attitude kept us from going through the expense twice.
Heather said,
July 12, 2010 at 12:45 pm
So God, even in the midst of that woman’s attitude kept us from going through the expense twice.
It is amazing to me how He works things out, sometimes!
Z said,
July 13, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Elbro, that’s fine, but I think our kids might need more structure than they’re necessarily suited for so they’re better equipped to work for people who don’t love them like we do…I like the idea of fine tuning things so our kids learn easier but I’d be a stickler on keeping time schedules, giving a enough school work to show them responsibility, accountability, etc etc. But, that’s just ME!
Elmers Brother said,
July 13, 2010 at 4:54 pm
it’s not just you…we were much more structured at the beginning but it frustrated the kids and frustrated our intentions
I’d say maybe a different way to describe it is that we learned how to relax and have fun with it…and since our school day in effect lasted all day, with learning opportunities at the dinner table etc.
I agree with you in the sense that they need to learn schedules etc. and be held accountable though flexible enough to keep it interesting, fun and productive
Elmers Brother said,
July 13, 2010 at 4:55 pm
In our case Z it truly became a lifestyle
terrybreathinggrace said,
July 13, 2010 at 8:20 pm
Heather sent me the link to this, and I must say that I enjoyed it a great deal. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Elmers Brother said,
July 14, 2010 at 7:03 am
thanks for stopping by Terry do you homeschool?
terrybreathinggrace said,
July 14, 2010 at 8:42 pm
Yes and No.It’s an involved story, but I’ll be brief.
We have 5 children, 3 young adults (commonly known as teenagers), and 2 very young youngsters.
Our three oldest are in public school, always have been. When the youngest two of the older three (twins) were ending their 6th grade year, I started to have reservations about the education they were getting and the environment in which they were receiving it. And we live in a “good” school district.
Private Christian school was the first line of thinking, but with one paycheck, 3 kids, and a baby on the way again after 12 years (God is good!), that wasn’t a viable option. I started looking into homeschool, and was intrigued. After much prayer and soul searchng my husband decided (and I agreed) to let the older kids stay put, since they were only looking at 4 and 5 more years respectively, and I was going to be adjusting to life with a new baby after being disconnected from that for quite a long time. That was 4 years ago and we’ve had another baby since then (God is good!)
We have committed to homeschooling the younger two children, along with any future children we may be blessed to have. With our daughter turning 4 in a couple of weeks, I have begun prayerfully and diligently preparing for the homeschooling adventure.
Quite a long answer for a yes or no question, I know.
Elmers Brother said,
July 15, 2010 at 7:59 am
Oh I enjoyed that Terry and it sounds like you have a really wonderful combination there of public school and homeschooling. One of the things I love about homeschooling is its flexibility.
Heather said,
July 25, 2010 at 5:59 pm
EB to Z
it’s not just you…we were much more structured at the beginning but it frustrated the kids and frustrated our intentions
I have to confess that when we started out, I told my son he needed to raise his hand if he needed my help. As though, in a class of one, he couldn’t just use the same established means of attracting my attention that he always had.
Went way overboard at the beginning and, even though the child has always loved to learn, I’m afraid that experience has made organized education a bit of a struggle for him. I have wondered how many young children’s interest in learning has been stifled by the way we typically go about introducing them to the process of formalized schooling.
Elmers Brother said,
July 25, 2010 at 7:09 pm
I agree Heather. Sorry I haven’t been around much. Busy on this end with car accident, working overtime etc….well I don’t need to tell you…you’re a mother.
Heather said,
July 25, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Busy on this end with car accident, working overtime etc….
I understand busy-ness.
I hope the accident was not too serious.
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